# ============================================================================== # John Perry Barlow on civil disobedience in a digital world # # Interview with John Perry Barlow on the # 23rd Chaos Communication Congress (23C3) # Berlin, 29.12.2006 # # Interviewer: Markus Beckedahl # Camera: Mario Behling # http://www.netzpolitik.org # https://www.netzpolitik.org/2007/netzpolitiktv-john-perry-barlow-ueber-zivilen-ungehorsam/ # # Transcript, Subtitles: Stefan T. Saffert # January 2007 # # Subtitling done using Subtitle Editor # http://kitone.free.fr/subtitleeditor/ # # http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.5/deed.de # ============================================================================== 1 00:00:12,167 --> 00:00:15,278 When I examine my life today and think about 2 00:00:15,556 --> 00:00:18,612 the useful things I've done with it so far, I'd have to say 3 00:00:18,778 --> 00:00:22,056 very high on that list is making a convert out of Larry Lessig. 4 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:00,000 is making a convert out of Larry Lessig. 5 00:00:23,001 --> 00:00:25,056 Because when I first ran across him, 6 00:00:25,057 --> 00:00:26,779 he was of a very different set of viewpoints 7 00:00:26,834 --> 00:00:28,223 on this than he is now. 8 00:00:29,612 --> 00:00:31,390 And he's always gonna be, 9 00:00:31,890 --> 00:00:34,112 I think by temperament and nature, 10 00:00:34,168 --> 00:00:36,501 he's always gonna be much more pessimistic than I am. 11 00:00:37,779 --> 00:00:40,724 I'm an almost pathological optimist. 12 00:00:42,779 --> 00:00:46,113 So, you know, we'll always have that division 13 00:00:46,224 --> 00:00:48,613 and one thing about optimism is that 14 00:00:48,891 --> 00:00:53,169 it believes that people are inherently good 15 00:00:53,113 --> 00:00:57,336 and, you know, if freedom is allowed to prosper then 16 00:00:59,002 --> 00:01:01,280 good will will arise from below. 17 00:01:01,891 --> 00:01:03,947 Pessimism always believes that 18 00:01:04,058 --> 00:01:06,169 people are inherently rotten 19 00:01:06,225 --> 00:01:09,058 and must be controlled from above. 20 00:01:10,558 --> 00:01:12,003 That's kind of the difference 21 00:01:12,058 --> 00:01:14,559 but, I mean, I think it's been a really good symbiosis 22 00:01:14,614 --> 00:01:18,170 and as I said when I started to discuss this with him, 23 00:01:18,225 --> 00:01:20,226 I think that our disagreements 24 00:01:20,226 --> 00:01:21,615 have been fruitful. 25 00:01:21,670 --> 00:01:23,448 I mean the dynamic between 26 00:01:23,448 --> 00:01:25,781 his point of view and mine on these matters 27 00:01:25,892 --> 00:01:28,504 has been useful to a lot of other people as well. 28 00:01:29,337 --> 00:01:32,393 So let's come to your view of the debate. 29 00:01:32,671 --> 00:01:36,393 The dialogue before it was a lecture by Larry Lessig 30 00:01:36,449 --> 00:01:39,726 and while he's a very pessimistic person 31 00:01:39,893 --> 00:01:43,782 who thinks we have 20 years no chance 32 00:01:43,893 --> 00:01:47,560 to change law and maybe technology, 33 00:01:49,227 --> 00:01:50,783 you have another view. 34 00:01:50,783 --> 00:01:51,560 What is your view? 35 00:01:51,672 --> 00:01:54,283 My view is, you know, if we just keep 36 00:01:54,283 --> 00:01:56,450 pressing the system where it breaks, 37 00:01:56,838 --> 00:01:59,894 eventually the system is so broken 38 00:01:59,894 --> 00:02:01,839 and so obviously broken 39 00:02:02,116 --> 00:02:05,283 that there's no choice but for people 40 00:02:05,394 --> 00:02:07,394 to start evolving another economic model. 41 00:02:07,450 --> 00:02:09,561 And that's actually what's already happening. 42 00:02:09,950 --> 00:02:10,950 Rather rapidly. 43 00:02:11,006 --> 00:02:11,895 I mean, it was interesting 44 00:02:11,950 --> 00:02:13,173 after that conference 45 00:02:14,284 --> 00:02:16,339 where I was talking to these, 46 00:02:16,339 --> 00:02:17,951 you know, usual suspects. 47 00:02:18,395 --> 00:02:20,062 It was suddenly for the first time 48 00:02:20,062 --> 00:02:22,284 friendly as [???], you know, 49 00:02:22,340 --> 00:02:23,951 where previously I've been the devil 50 00:02:24,006 --> 00:02:26,006 and now they've been regarding me as, you know, 51 00:02:26,062 --> 00:02:27,784 maybe somebody that could show them 52 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:29,396 the way out of the darkness, 53 00:02:29,896 --> 00:02:32,340 which I thought was a significant shift. 54 00:02:33,396 --> 00:02:35,396 So I think that we need to continue. 55 00:02:35,340 --> 00:02:38,396 I think he's being a little over-reactive when he says, 56 00:02:38,896 --> 00:02:40,563 you know, "acts of terrorism". 57 00:02:40,618 --> 00:02:43,730 I just think we need to continue breaking their system. 58 00:02:44,507 --> 00:02:48,063 You know, what happens is exactly what happened 59 00:02:48,119 --> 00:02:51,174 not half a mile from here eventually. 60 00:02:51,563 --> 00:02:53,897 You know, it breaks and it breaks and it breaks 61 00:02:53,897 --> 00:02:56,230 and then one day the whole damn thing goes down. 62 00:02:56,452 --> 00:02:59,619 And when copyright in the virtual world 63 00:02:59,675 --> 00:03:02,730 - and I'm not against copyright in the physical world, 64 00:03:03,119 --> 00:03:05,008 I'm not against copyright as it pertains 65 00:03:05,008 --> 00:03:07,175 the actual copies of things, 66 00:03:08,008 --> 00:03:11,564 you know, books and CDs and things of that nature - 67 00:03:13,564 --> 00:03:17,009 but when it's become obvious that it's just simply 68 00:03:17,064 --> 00:03:19,731 not going to work in cyberspace, 69 00:03:20,342 --> 00:03:22,009 I think you'll see it collapse. 70 00:03:22,065 --> 00:03:24,231 It will be as sudden and surprising 71 00:03:24,343 --> 00:03:27,120 as the thing that took this wall down over here. 72 00:03:28,232 --> 00:03:31,287 You know, I was in Germany in the summer of '89 73 00:03:31,232 --> 00:03:33,287 as I expect you were, too. 74 00:03:33,343 --> 00:03:36,232 And nobody to my recollection thought 75 00:03:36,288 --> 00:03:37,510 there was the chance that that wall 76 00:03:37,510 --> 00:03:39,621 was gonna be down in 20 years, right? 77 00:03:40,510 --> 00:03:44,899 And, you know, everybody was just completely, you know, 78 00:03:44,955 --> 00:03:49,066 disconsolate about the irretrievable state of things. 79 00:03:49,066 --> 00:03:51,455 Right at the moment when, you know, we were sort of 80 00:03:51,566 --> 00:03:54,511 dropping the last crystal in the super-saturated solution 81 00:03:54,511 --> 00:03:56,344 that would cause things to go "Boom" 82 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:57,789 and do a state-change 83 00:03:57,844 --> 00:03:59,178 and that's what I think is gonna happen 84 00:03:59,289 --> 00:04:02,122 and I think it'll happen a lot quicker than 20 years. 85 00:04:02,233 --> 00:04:05,511 I think it'll happen sometime in the next five if not less. 86 00:04:05,900 --> 00:04:09,289 What can the people do to crash the system? 87 00:04:09,456 --> 00:04:10,289 Go on and do... 88 00:04:10,289 --> 00:04:12,956 you know, if you wanna share something 89 00:04:13,623 --> 00:04:15,178 share it. 90 00:04:15,678 --> 00:04:17,734 You know, if you wanna use something 91 00:04:17,734 --> 00:04:18,845 use it. 92 00:04:23,512 --> 00:04:26,068 Try to do so ethically in the sense that, you know, 93 00:04:26,068 --> 00:04:28,457 don't take things without attribution 94 00:04:28,623 --> 00:04:29,846 attribute. 95 00:04:30,179 --> 00:04:31,957 Make sure that the people who did create 96 00:04:32,068 --> 00:04:34,402 actually have the opportunity to get some 97 00:04:35,735 --> 00:04:38,235 enhanced reputation and thereby, you know, 98 00:04:38,291 --> 00:04:40,235 greater economic return. 99 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,735 But, you know, pay no attention to these people 100 00:04:43,791 --> 00:04:46,180 when it comes to being creative. 101 00:04:46,347 --> 00:04:48,347 Go ahead and do the stuff that Larry showed 102 00:04:48,402 --> 00:04:50,402 in the beginning of his talk 103 00:04:50,402 --> 00:04:51,847 and do lots of it. 104 00:04:52,069 --> 00:04:54,902 And every time they put a lock on - break it. 105 00:04:55,236 --> 00:04:58,180 And every time they pass a new law - break that. 106 00:04:59,347 --> 00:05:00,569 You know. 107 00:05:02,458 --> 00:05:04,181 Sooner or later 108 00:05:04,181 --> 00:05:07,014 they're dealing with such a massive level 109 00:05:07,014 --> 00:05:10,403 of civil disobedience that they have to address it. 110 00:05:10,570 --> 00:05:12,070 And that's where we're headed 111 00:05:12,070 --> 00:05:13,348 in a, I think, a hell of a hurry. 112 00:05:13,403 --> 00:05:18,459 I mean, you go to California 113 00:05:18,459 --> 00:05:20,681 and you drive down the 280, 114 00:05:20,681 --> 00:05:25,126 which is sort of the main artery of Silicon Valley 115 00:05:25,182 --> 00:05:26,626 and connects to San Francisco, 116 00:05:26,682 --> 00:05:28,793 and all those cars are going 85 mph 117 00:05:28,849 --> 00:05:30,849 where the speed limit is 65. 118 00:05:31,404 --> 00:05:33,460 But it's a good road 119 00:05:33,460 --> 00:05:35,516 and there are good cars generally 120 00:05:35,516 --> 00:05:36,960 and they're good drivers 121 00:05:37,016 --> 00:05:39,460 and there's not a damn thing anybody can do about it. 122 00:05:39,460 --> 00:05:42,627 What are they gonna do? Arrest the entire highway? No. 123 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:44,516 So the cops are right there cruising 124 00:05:44,516 --> 00:05:46,572 along with you at 85 mph. 125 00:05:47,405 --> 00:05:50,016 And that's still against the law 126 00:05:50,572 --> 00:05:53,294 but nevertheless people have [asserted/???] the freedom 127 00:05:53,516 --> 00:05:55,294 to drive as fast as they think, you know, 128 00:05:55,405 --> 00:05:58,183 which is reliably safe under those circumstances. 129 00:05:58,628 --> 00:06:00,628 And we have to do the same thing. 130 00:06:01,461 --> 00:06:03,350 OK, thank you very much.